2 + 2 = 5 if the party says so

Some of us spent - or wasted? - a lot of time talking epistemology over at the Old Life blog.  Below I cut and pasted what I think is a summary of the arguments that 3 of the Reformed guys were making. Yes, they actually used the example of 2 + 2 not necessarily = 4. 

What does it all mean?  For one thing, it means I am happy to be Catholic. That means a lot to me. 

This is a quote from George Orwell’s 1984. Thank you to my wise friend, TVD - Tom Van Dyke - for quoting this in a comment on his blog, American Creation. 

Only the disciplined mind can see reality, Winston. You believe that reality is something objective, external, existing in its own right. You also believe that the nature of reality is self-evident. When you delude yourself into thinking that you see something, you assume that everyone else sees the same thing as you. But I tell you, Winston, that reality is not external. Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else. Not in the individual mind, which can make mistakes, and in any case soon perishes: only in the mind of the Party, which is collective and immortal. Whatever the Party holds to be the truth, is truth. It is impossible to see reality except by looking through the eyes of the Party. That is the fact that you have got to relearn, Winston. It needs an act of self-destruction, an effort of the will. You must humble yourself before you can become sane.' 
He paused for a few moments, as though to allow what he had been saying to sink in. 
'Do you remember,' he went on, 'writing in your diary, "Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four"?' 
'Yes,' said Winston. 
O'Brien held up his left hand, its back towards Winston, with the thumb hidden and the four fingers extended. 
'How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?' 
'Four.' 
'And if the party says that it is not four but five -- then how many?' 
'Four.' 
The word ended in a gasp of pain.

Wisdom of TVD

When you're neither clever nor handsome, can't play ball and can't play guitar, aren't funny or charming, inventing your own theology and sneering at everyone else's becomes an attractive life goal.
TVD

Gleaned from Comments at Old Life

 Person 1: I feel as though I know so little, have so much to learn, and have made so many mistakes, so many missteps in my life. The term ‘life-long learner’ is a good fit for me

Person 2: Ariel, if so serious then require repentance over apology. The latter is cheap, the former more difficult. Another option is to let offense go so it can rest on the head of your accuser. But in blogdom it’s all about the drama.

Person 3: ... we all have ‘blind spots’ (I fear I have the most), so yours was an excellent point and reminder.”>>>
Response from Person 4: Well isn’t that a fine attitude to take. ;-) Bless your heart sir :) Of course, this side of the resurrection, we will all live and die with some blind spots.
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So, I am  lifelong learner with the Word of God, Sacred Tradition, and the Teaching Magisterium of the Catholic Church, - led by the Holy Spirit - to be my guides. I am not left all on my own to try to figure it all out by myself. Christ put me in His body. There I am hidden with Christ in God who is above all and through all and in all. 

Let all else go, and be joyous!

Ephesians 4New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

Unity in the Body of Christ

4 I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 making every effort to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.

You don’t know what you got ‘till it’s gone... One more dedicated to TVD

S:
Everyone provokes the other here, which isn’t unual in the reformed blogosphere. (I was just reading some older comments at greenbaggins and sure enough dersion was directed( and approvingly so) at the “Romanists” who comment there too.)>>>>>


See, S, I am doing a bit of penance here. I used to be anti Catholic. I am not proud of that.

I used to be on the side - more or less - of the Reformed people - men and women. I have had a great respect for them, especially because of some in my family who are Reformed and have done a great job of raising their children.

I don’t know what to think of this underlying anti Catholicism that is still so ingrained. I am seeing it from the other side, now. It didn’t seem like that big a deal before. How things change.

I have always had Catholic friends, too, so it wasn’t some personal anti Catholic “thing.”  It’s just built into Protestantism. Maybe it cuts both ways. Maybe after 500 years we can change?

It seems the Lord would want us to.

At least we are not taking up arms against one another anymore. That is a huge deal.

So, thank you, Tom, wherever you are, for all your support here at Old Life. I will never forget that, even though I took your help for granted. Now that it is gone, ... anyway ...

I will look for you at your American Creation blog. I don’t post there ‘cuz I really don’t know much about the history of religious freedom in America. It’s just something we take for granted. Not a good idea in these days we live in where freedom of religion is changed to freedom of worship.

See, the whole St. Thomas Moore thing is a simple epistemology. We all have to trust someone else to tell us what Scripture teaches. We all have the Apostle’s Creed as well as a standard. When someone says that Jesus may have stayed in the grave, just don’t follow that person.

How do we know?  Scripture, Tradition, and the Teaching Magisterium line up on that without fail.

TVD challenged Brother Hart

D. G. Hart
Posted January 6, 2016 at 10:20 am | Permalink
K, I didn’t ban vd, t. He is free to comment. >>>>

What you did, Brother Hart, was put him in the middle of the class with a dunce hat on. The kids can’t talk to him, but all are free to talk about him.

What are you afraid of?  If I remember right, your only responses to him had to do with his hair, his music - which is outstanding - and your dirty little trick played with his name. Oh, and you started the whole “butch” thing. Remember?

So, IOW, you have no arguments to refute anything he said. That seems to have frustrated him. He seems to have expected better of you. He seemed to think you would be a more worthy opponent. He seemed to try to get you to engage. You don’t seem to be able to. Why is that?

You sit in your ivory tower and throw comment bombs at everyone you think is beneath you.

You never really enter the discussion.

You could start right now by explaining where the OPC fits in the “onsies” of Ephesians 4.

More about Tom VanDyke - TVD

See, I read your comments about Tom, and I wonder. You don’t know him, yet you judge him.

Whatever his personal faith is, he seems 100% committed. Just because he refused to talk about his personal beliefs doesn’t mean he doesn’t have them. That is a fallacious line of argumentation. You really don’t know.

I don’t detect  nominalism at all.

I don’t detect agnosticism at all.

I don’t detect a desire to argue just for the sake of arguing at all. Every word he said has a point. No one refuted him, ever. Brother Hart did all he could to slime him. Why is that? Maybe he exposed Brother Hart for what he is.

Brother Hart, for all his knowledge, does not make well thought out arguments - ever.

What do I suspect about Brother Hart?  Well,  I would say he is nihilistic. He mocks everyone’s faith all the time. Nothing in this world is real or has meaning for him. Is it possible for a person to be a Christian nihilist?

I think that Tom has his number. That is why Dr. Hart feels threatened by him. Besides, Tom was the only really interesting thing going on here. Without him, y’all can get back to your regularly scheduled, dreadfully boring disagreements with one another - because that is what Protestants do. If it’s not with the Papists, it is with the Pietists. If it’s not with the Pietists, it’s with the Arminians. If it’s not with the Arminians, it’s with the neo-Calvinists  and the Charismatics and the Episcopalians and the list goes on and on.

So, who are the ones who like to pick fights again? Not Tom. He tried to intervene when y’all got nasty. It worked sometimes.

I think Brother Hart didn’t like it that everyone wanted to talk to Tom and not him.

ni·hil·ism
ˈnīəˌlizəm,ˈnēəˌlizəm/Submit
noun
the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless.
synonyms: skepticism, negativity, cynicism, pessimism; More
PHILOSOPHY
extreme skepticism maintaining that nothing in the world has a real existence.

Homage to TVD - Tom Van Dyke

Z

Posted January 4, 2016 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

Robert, bingo. Like I always said, he was the religious version of the swinging bachelor telling all the marrieds how to do marriage. You’d think a married guy would get that. But he’s also a good example of cultural Christianity–religion is really only useful to build the polis, which should give the resident converts some pause about who’s in their corner, as well as the worldviewers (since he was so enamored with how Calvinism allegedly made America).>>>>>

Well, you know, maybe he saw how empty Calvinism really is and didn’t like the underlying anti Catholic bigotry that drives it. 

I am shocked myself. If I had been here as an impartial observer, seeing how the Catholics handle themselves with grace and kindness - and I’m a new Catholic, so don’t think I’m talking about myself - I probably would have sided with anyone but the Calvinists. 

I am a recovering Protestant who was very interested in the WCF and the Doctrines of Grace for a long time - the TULIP. I  accepted  the Doctrines of Grace as the Gospel, but it really is a dead end. It is close, but not quite true. It promises assurance, but cannot deliver. No one can ever be sincere enough. There is always a fear that maybe my assurance is a false assurance. 

Besides, Tom is the only one who stood up to Brother Hart’s bullying.  Tom is the only one who called you guys on your mistreatment of the Nice Catholic Ladies - especially Susan, and me as well. He even got called names by one of your Reformed women. How can that be?

You really should not be taken seriously, you know. 

All that focus on the sins of the Catholic Church, and brushing off your own abusive tendencies as if they were nothing is not really a good sign. 

So, I am sorry to see Tom treated the way he has been. Yes, I understand your frustration, but maybe not in the way you guys do. You get angry when someone will not bow the knee to you. Tom never bowed, never submitted, never gave in to your bullying. He has more integrity than anyone here - except Susan who is a model of Christian kindness. Well, Kevin, too. Oh, and CvD is outstanding. So was the guy from Texas. I hope I didn’t forget any of the Catholics. Well, Dan is a great guy as well. Me, sometimes, but not so much. 

And, you know, Brother Hart, why you did what you did with his initials. It was a dirty trick. You are not kidding me. 

I do appreciate some who commented, but in general, I’d say you guys are the ones who need to grow up.